I am no longer a Christian

DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
edited March 2011 in Spurious Generalities
I've been doubting my faith for the past couple months then today in Negrophobes thread on race anthropology was brought up and this led to read up on it all day. Well I started reading more on evolution and looking at how the skulls and skeletons gradually turned into man. This lead me to reading up on Darwin and all that.

After realizing the science is there and is indisputable this lead to only one conclusion. That the Genesis which talks of Adam and Eve must be false. Unless they looked like Ape men which it says they didn't. Well if Genesis is false then the entire Bible must be false as well. My ideas on religion and the Bible were truly inferior.

Reading Might is Right as well as some stuff from Marx and Nietzsche helped me come to this also. Religion IS just a system to keep people down. Like Marx says it's the opiate of the people. It blinds people and leaves them content. Hitler also saw the fallacy of religion and allowed it only for political reasons. I also questioned why I had "faith". It's like Mark twain said faith is believing in what you know ain't true.

Comments

  • MayberryMayberry Regular
    edited November 2010
    Congrats. You've finally realized something that all properly educated people have known for a long time.
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited November 2010
    Mayberry wrote: »
    Congrats. You've finally realized something that all properly educated people have known for a long time.

    It's a surprisingly liberating feeling.
  • NegrophobeNegrophobe Regular
    edited November 2010
    It's great to hear it man, it's also worth noting that almost every story with christianity has been stolen from other pagan religions and is rooted in mythology, Revilo P. Oliver wrote some great stuff concerning religion, as has Jordan Maxwell.

    It's like I said to you on zoklet, the possibility a Jesus did exist may be true, but certainly not on the level proported and certainly not the son of god. The first time that the name Jesus Christ appears in any Roman records (who were VERY GOOD with record keping) is the book The Jewish Wars, by Josephus, a Romanized Jew who was commissioned to write a history of the Jewish rebellion (you can still buy this book online).

    Josephus' work was first published in 90 AD. In the book, Josephus makes mention of a small sect of Jews who claim to follow a messiah figure called Jesus, but the mention is brief.

    By the time of Christ's alleged death (supposedly 33 AD) Christianity had very few followers, most people regarded the Christian philosophy as nothing but a reworking of the Essene cult. It is clear that Christianity, as a religion, originated from Jewish mythology which was rooted mainly in Egyptian mythology and practices (they even stole circumcision from the Egyptians).

    The dead sea scrolls are the holy books of a sub-sect of Jews called the Essenes. The Essenes were persecuted by other Jews, who disagreed that the Jewish God, Yahweh, was a God for all people, and not just for Jews. Many of the fundamental concepts of christianity were contained in the Essene religion - the Essenes had an allegorical story about a wise prophet who was killed and then rose from the dead, known to them as the "Teacher of Righteousness". Sound familiar to you?

    The "eye for an eye" law of the old testament was taken from the Sumerian Code of Hammurabi (1750 BC). The "eye for an eye" law was plagiarized word for word from Hammurabi's Code. Even the idea of monotheism wasn't original to the jews, monotheism was infact created by the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaton (1350 - 1334 BC) who declared that there was only one god, the Sun God.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten
    Akhenaten is spoken of in Revilo P. Oliver's writings too and backs up what I'm saying.

    The idea of crucifixtion is not original to christianity either, but greek mythology.
    truecross.gif
    The writing in that picture identifies the crucified man as the Greek man-god Orpheus-Dionysus, who rose from the dead in that culture's mythology.

    So much is stolen from Egyptian and Greek mythology.

    Christianity is to blame for the dark ages and the domestication of man today. Hitler was a politician remember, he said what he had to say to appeal to the people; his table talks are a much more determiner of what he really thought. He was not fond of christianity.

    Further reading:
    http://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/RPO_NewChrist/toc_ol.htm
    The Christ Myth - A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence by John E. Remsberg.
  • NegrophobeNegrophobe Regular
    edited November 2010
    Astro-Theology by Jordan Maxwell

    The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun.

    -- Thomas Paine

    In the New Testament, a provocative and most serious challenge is laid on the whole of Christianity. Since it bears directly on our subject, we will quote it: "...if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is also in vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God...And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins." (I Cor. 15:13117)

    Let's closely examine the original, conceptual foundations of the faith, and then decide. But in order to do that, we must go back not 2000 years to the birth of Christ, but 10 to 15,000 years to the birth of modern man. For when one seeks to establish foundations, one must begin at the beginning. Many thousands of years ago, in what we refer to as the "primordial world" of the ancients, human life was a far different experience from that which we enjoy today. While it is true that we have less documentation on that prehistoric world than we have on our own picture of our remote ancestry. If we have learned anything at all, it is this: "That the more we change, the more we stay the same." And nowhere is this more clearly demonstrated than in the history of man's quest for "God", and the ancient religion we still keep holy. According to the best understanding we have gleaned from the available records, life for our ancient forefathers was a mixture of wonder and fear. Each day, just finding food for one's family without becoming a meal oneself was a life-and-death struggle. It was from these meager, distressful conditions of the human race that our long history of the search for God and meaning of life has come. Any evolution, at its most accelerated rate, is always agonizingly slow. But from the beginning, man's profound questions demanded answers. When no clear answers were forthcoming from the universe, man turned inward and developed his own. The study of this subject is termed "Astro-Theology" or the worship of the heavens. It did not take ancient man very long to decide that in this world the single greatest enemy to be feared was the darkness of night. Simply stated, man's first enemy was darkness.

    With this one fact alone, one can readily understand why the greatest and most trustworthy friend the human race would ever have was heaven's greatest gift to the world ... the Glorious Rising Orb of Day ... THE SUN. With this simple truth understood, we can now begin to unravel an ancient and wonderful story. Today, as in all of mankind�s history, it has once again been told anew. This is the story of Christianity: "The Greatest Story Ever Told." We shall see that the parallels between Christian metaphors and the natural reality of sun and sky are so striking that they constitute - the whole story. Modern-day Christianity has often belittled our ancient ancestors who are not here to defend themselves. They accuse them of being nothing more than ignorant worshippers of miscellaneous gods. Therefore we can, with assurance, summarily dismiss 14,000 years of human spirituality as ignominious myth believed by well-meaning but gullible primitives. Too much of this kind of spiritual arrogance and religious pride has continued without challenge ... until now! The time has come to set matters straight. The "Greatest Story" went something like this ...

    The ancient peoples reasoned that no one on Earth could ever lay claim of ownership to the Great Orb of Day. It must belong to the unseen Creator of the universe. It became, figuratively speaking, not man's but "God's Sun." Truly, "God's Sun" was ... "The Light of the World."

    As stated before, in the dark cold of night man realized his utter vulnerability to the elements. Each night, mankind was forced to wait for the "Rising of The Sun" to chase away the physical and mental insecurity brought on by the darkness. Therefore, the morning Sun focused man's attention on heavenly dependence for his frail, short existence on Earth, Doing so, it became an appropriate symbol of divine benevolence from heaven.

    So just as a small fire brought limited light into man's own little world of darkness, likewise, the "Great Fire of Day" served the whole Earth with its heavenly presence. For this reason, it was said at Deut. 4:24 and Heb. 12:29 that the God of the Bible was a "Consuming Fire" in heaven. And so He was! It was accepted by all that man was bound to a life on Earth, but the sky was the abode of God's Sun. He resides "up there" in ... "Heaven."

    Ancient man saw in his male offspring his own image and likeness, and his own existence as a father was proved by the person of his son. It was assumed that "God's Sun" was but a visible representative of the unseen Creator in heaven. So it was said, "When you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father." Said another way, "The Father is glorified in His Son."

    Ancient man had no problem understanding that all life on Earth depended directly on life-giving energy from the Sun. Consequently, all life was lost without the Sun. It followed that "God's Sun" was nothing less than "Our very Savior."

    Logically, even if man himself dies, as long as the Sun comes up each day, life on Earth will continue forever. Therefore, it was said in the ancient texts that everlasting life was "the gift" that the Father gives through his Sun. Not for you personally - but for the Earth ... everlasting life!

    Since evil and harm lurked at every turn in the fearful dark of night, all evil or harmful deeds were naturally the ... Works of Darkness."

    And of course the evil of night was ruled over by none other than ... "The Prince of Darkness." Hence, evil is of the Dark or Devil.

    We now have before us two cosmic brothers - one very good, and one very bad. One brings the "truth to light" with the "light of truth." The other is the opposite, or in opposition to the light - "The Opposer" ... Prince of the World of Darkness.

    At this point we come to Egypt. More than three thousand years before Christianity began, the early morning "Sun/Savior" was pictured in Egypt as the " New Born Babe." The infant savior's name was "Horus." At day break, this wonderful, newborn child is of course "Born Again" (halleluhaj). Horus is risen on the Horizon.

    "God's Sun, The Light of the World, with Crown of Thorns"

    "If people simply realized that most major religions (including Christianity) are based on astrology and sun worship - mankind would be a lot better off ...

    the editor

    And of course "God's Sun" goes to His death wearing a "crown of thorns' or "corona." Remember the Statue of Liberty? To this day, kings still wear a round crown of spikes, symbolizing the rays of the Sun!

    The Egyptians knew that the Sun was at its highest point in the sky (or high noon) when no shadow was cast by the pyramid. At that point, all Egypt offered prayers to the "Most High" God! As stated before, to the ancients, the sky was the abode, or heavenly temple, of the "Most High." Therefore, "God's Sun" was doing His heavenly Father's work in the temple at 12 noon!

    The world of ancient man kept track of times and seasons by the movement of the Sun - daily, monthly, yearly. For this, the sundial was devised. Not only the daily movement of the Sun was tracked on the round dial, but the whole year was charted on a round calendar dial. Examples: Ancient Mexican, Mayan, Inca, Aztec, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Celtic, Aryan, etc. With this method, certain new concepts emerged in the mind of ancient man.

    Since the Earth experiences four different seasons, all the same and equal (in time) each year, the round calendar was divided into four equal parts. This represented the complete story of the life of "God's Sun." The famous painting of "The Last Supper" pictures the 12 followers of the Son in four groups (of 3) ... the four seasons of the year!

    On the round surface of the yearly calendar, you draw a vertical line directly across the middle, cutting the circle in half - one end being the point of the winter solstice; the other end being the point of the summer solstice. Then draw another straight line (crossing the first one). One end of the new line is the spring equinox; the other end is the autumn equinox.

    You now have the starting points for each of the four seasons. This is referred to by all major encyclopedias and reference works, both ancient and modern, as "The Cross of the Zodiac." Thus, the life of God's "Sun" is on "the Cross." This is why we see the round circle of the Sun on the crosses of Christian churches. The next time you pass a Christian church, look for the circle (Sun) on the cross. On December 21 or 22, the Sun, going south, reaches its lowest point in the sky (our winter solstice). By December 25th, it is clear that the Sun is returning northward. Therefore, on Dec. 25th the sun is "Born Again." Christians stole Dec. 25 from the Roman celebration of Sol invictus - the Sun Unconquered. And to this day, His worshippers still celebrate His birthday - Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year. As noted before, the year was divided into 12 equal parts, or months. And to each month was appointed a heavenly symbol or astrological "Sign." Each of the 12 monthly signs was called a "House" of the heavenly Zodiac.

    We are told in Matthew 14:17 & 19 that God's Son tends to His people's needs with "Two Fishes." The two fishes represent the astrological sign all astrologers know as "Pisces." Thus, we have had for almost 2000 years God's Sun ruling in His "Kingdom" in the sign of Pisces/Two Fishes. As stated before, these signs are called houses. Therefore, Pisces is the "Lord's House" at this time. Truly the Greatest "Fish Story Ever Told! According to astrology, sometime after the year 2000, the Sun will enter His new Sign, or His new Kingdom, as it was called by the ancients. This next coming Sign/Kingdom, soon to be upon us, will be, according to the Zodiac, the House or Sign of Aquarius. So when we read in Luke 22:10, we now understand why God's Son states that He and His followers, at the last Passover, are to go into "the house of the man with the water pitcher." So we see that in the coming millennium, God's Sun will bring us into His new Kingdom or House of Aquarius (the man with the water pitcher).

    Once we realize that in Astrology, each month is assigned one of the so-called "Houses" of the Zodiac and in heaven are 12 houses (12 monthly signs), then the words we read of God's Son saying "In my Father's House are many mansions, " makes sense (when translated correctly). The proper translation is as follows:

    Father's House = Heavenly Abode

    Mansions = Houses

    So, correctly read in the original text, we read: "In my Father's heavenly abode are many houses." Yes, 12 to be exact. "The Pisces of the Zodiac is still prominent on church windows of all denominations."

    Anyone familiar with modern-day Christianity must surely know we are said to be living in the "Last Days." This teaching is, in part, based on the idea expressed in Matthew 28:20 of the King James Bible, where God's Son says, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." End of the World??!! Yet another simple mistranslation to clarify with a proper understanding of the actual words used. This "end of the world" is translated differently in various Bibles. Some say "End of Time," "End of the Days," and still others say "Conclusion of this system of things." So what does all this talk of the "End Times/Last Days" really mean?

    Here is the simple answer. When the scriptures speak of "the end of the world," the actual word used is not, I repeat, not end of the world. The actual word in Greek is "Aeon," which, when correctly translated, means "Age," that's spelled "A G E"! Any library will have Bible Concordances. Strong's Bible concordance is a good reference work to use here. Look up the word "age" in any secular dictionary or Bible Concordance. There you will find the word for "age" is from the Greek "Aeon." Remembering that in astrology each of the 12 houses (or signs) of the Zodiac corresponds to a 2000-year period of time, called an "ag," we now know we are nearly 2000 years into the House or Age of Pisces. Now, correctly understood, it can rightly be said that we today, in fact, are living in the "Last Days."
  • NegrophobeNegrophobe Regular
    edited November 2010
    Continued...
    Yes, we are in the last days of the old "Age of Pisces." Soon, God's Sun will come again into His New Kingdom or "New Age" of Aquarius (man with the water pitcher). That's right, "The New Aeon" ... "The New Age."

    This is the theme in the New Testament - God's Sun and his coming Kingdom/Age. "The New Age of Aquarius."

    It was well understood by ancient man that our weather was caused and controlled by the Sun. It was a simple fact that God's Sun had the power to control storms at will. The ancient Egyptians taught that He did this as He rested in His heavenly boat while crossing the sky. The story of Jesus calming the storm (Matt. U:23-27) echoes this.

    The next point to be made requires first a little background. Christians have always referred to God as �The Father." But viewing God as a father didn't start here - it goes back far into the ancient world. The reason is: Our planet was always viewed as our "Mother Earth or Mother Nature." And since rain (the life-bringing fluid), falling from heaven, impregnated and brought life to Mother Earth, it was therefore believed that our Father was in Heaven.

    "LUKE 22:10 - Jesus tells his followers that they are to enter the house of the man with a water pitcher. This is the house of Aquarius, marking the beginning of a new age. It is one of the 122 ages or houses of the zodiac in the "Heavens."

    All this life-bringing intercourse between God the Father and Mother Earth would be after a proper marriage ceremony at a spring wedding. In the area today called Israel, called by the ancients "The Land of Canaan," the (sexual/fertility) rites of spring were celebrated each year in what was called "The Marriage Feast of Canaan."

    And so the New Testament story was ... Mother Earth asked God's Sun to draw water (from the sea) for the grapes to make fine wine for the wedding feast. This marriage feast story is over 55000 years old -- 3000 years before the New Testament story.

    It is at this point we need to go back to the ancient Egyptians to further understand "The Greatest Story Ever Told." Though all of the essential pieces of the Christian story were long in existence before Egypt, it was with the coming of the Pharaohs that the story was finally codified and became religious dogma. Though the story varied in some details from place to place in Egypt, the essence was always the same: God's Sun was the "Light of the World," who gave His life for us.

    In ancient Egypt it was said that if you wanted to follow the life of God's Sun and thereby: "live in the light of God's Word," one would first have to leave his old ways of life to "Follow the Sun." But before beginning this new life in "The Word," one must die to the old way of life and be "Born Again." Your first birth was "out of the water" your mother formed you in. Because her water broke and your new life began, rebirth is symbolized by coming out of total immersion in water - baptism - or being born again.

    These points here mentioned are a few of hundreds, if not thousands, of direct connections that can be made between the Judaeo-Christian Bible Story and the far more ancient, original Story. My purpose for drawing your attention to this literary plagiarism is best stated by Alfred North Whitehead who said, "No lie can live forever," and Egyptologist Gerald Massey, "They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority."

    First Pharaoh holds the shepherd's crook as the Good Shepherd; again later, Jesus carries the same crook. ... though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me -- thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Ps. 23:4"

    Now for a few thoughts on the "Old Testament" Word of God

    In Mal. 4:2, the God of Heaven is described as the "Sun of Righteousness with healing in His wings." The Sun with healing in His wings?? Then in the New Testament in Matt. 23:37 and Luke 13:34, we see God's Son wanting to gather all under "His wings." This is most appropriate for, in Egypt, the Sun was always pictured with His wings.

    In the ancient Egyptian understanding of things, mankind was called "the sheep of God." And the great Orb of Day, God's Sun, was the overseer or, in the exact words from the ancient Egyptian manuscript, "The Good Shepherd" -- and we are his flock. All ancient kings thought of their people as sheep to be pastured, with themselves as "the shepherd," Sheep are ideal followers, for they do not think for themselves but will blindly follow anyone without question. Truly admirable behavior for animals, but unwise for humans.

    With foregoing in mind, we read again from the Old Testament Book of Psalms. At Psalms 23:4 we read that old, dog-eared, tired, exhausted and equally misunderstood chestnut, used by every "man of the cloth" to put the sheep to sleep, we quote it here: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. The Rod and thy Staff, they comfort me." Thy Rod and thy Staff!!

    Here in the Book of Psalms, the Old Testament God is pictured with His Rod and Staff.

    The rod here mentioned is the king's "Rod of Discipline" and the staff is the "Shepherd's Staff," or crook. Now for the correct understanding of this old verse. Any good library book on the Egyptian religion will tell you that the ancient Pharaohs were said to be ruling for God's Sun on Earth. The Pharaoh was called "King of the Kingdom" and " The Great Shepherd of His Sheep." In the hands of the Pharaoh/God (whose arms form the "Sign of the cross" on his chest), were placed the royal symbols of heavenly power, the Rod and Staff.

    Incidentally, Jesus is pictured not only with His shepherd's staff but, in Rev. 12:5 & Rev. 19:15, is also said to " rule with a rod of iron."

    Jordan Maxwell is an author, teacher and lecturer on ancient religions and Astro-mythology.
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited November 2010
    Well, I hate to admit it but you're right. Religion is just tool IMO. I am a Muslim but only because I am forced to be. I honestly don't give a fuck about anything remotely related to religion.
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited November 2010
    The fact that many of the story's are so similar to older myths is what started the doubt in the first place. My previous belief in Christian Identity was:facepalm:

    My other issue is if God is real then why isn't he still doing Miracles and shit that in the bible in todays time. Plus lets say I'm wrong and I do go to hell at least Hell has all the interesting people there:p
  • NegrophobeNegrophobe Regular
    edited November 2010
    The fact that many of the story's are so similar to older myths is what started the doubt in the first place. My previous belief in Christian Identity was:facepalm:

    My other issue is if God is real then why isn't he still doing Miracles and shit that in the bible in todays time. Plus lets say I'm wrong and I do go to hell at least Hell has all the interesting people there:p

    Oh yeah, you know how the British Israelism/CI theory came about don't you? I can't remember if I told you. It was the Jewish lie that the British descend from the so-called lost tribes of Israel (which was used to allign British interests with Jewish interests during the 19th century- not necessarily a conspiracy style thing, don't get me wrong). It has nothing whatsoever to do with racialism.

    Agreed on hell. Marilyn Manson put it best about heaven, who would want to go to a place full of assholes?
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited November 2010
    Negrophobe wrote: »
    Oh yeah, you know how the British Israelism/CI theory came about don't you? I can't remember if I told you. It was the Jewish lie that the British descend from the so-called lost tribes of Israel (which was used to allign British interests with Jewish interests during the 19th century- not necessarily a conspiracy style thing, don't get me wrong). It has nothing whatsoever to do with racialism.

    Agreed on hell. Marilyn Manson put it best about heaven, who would want to go to a place full of assholes?

    I'm not to sure how it first came about. I know British Israelism was a small movement in England CI branched off of that and gave it a more racial tone.
  • StephenPBarrettStephenPBarrett Adviser
    edited November 2010
    I'm glad you've realized this. Good luck finding enlightenment outside of new information. Learning is the only thing you can do now.
  • LuxJigabooLuxJigaboo Regular
    edited November 2010
    applause.gif

    Did this happen slowly or in a single day? What prevented you from just running to the justifications of Christianity such as saying that all the evidence you discovered was itself just a lie?
  • MayberryMayberry Regular
    edited November 2010

    Congrats man, it's not worth letting religion ruin your life and take over your mind especially when there's no proof of jesus or god's existence. I am a strong believer in proof which is why i am a self proclaimed agnostic.


    ^SCIENCE :o:o:o:o:o
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited November 2010
    vozhde wrote: »
    Did this happen slowly or in a single day? What prevented you from just running to the justifications of Christianity such as saying that all the evidence you discovered was itself just a lie?

    I've been having serious doubts for the past month. It kept building and more info I researched and the more I read I began to realize I was wrong. The science is too overwhelming against it and the lack of proof is so obvious. Faith can only so far before logic has to take over.

    I also began to realize how religion has been used since the beginning to keep people down. To keep them from questioning there leaders. What kind of a system punishes people for doubt? Even the wars were in today are based on religion. Recently a lot of views I believed in are starting to change.

    The race thing I know to be true so there is no change at all on my opinions regarding race and the evils of multiculturalism but my views on religion and economics and such have been changing the more I think and read and study history.
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited November 2010
    Negrophobe wrote: »

    Thanks for the link. This is a great one to have because if you show this to the multiculturalists they can't claim that it's from a racist source which is usually there first tactic when confronted with the truth.

    So if we did evolve from niggers as people claim then wouldn't that prove that they're a less evolved less advanced form of human?
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited December 2010
    burroughs wrote: »
    Do you still feel this way? I read your article on Christian Identity and it seemed to be largely the basis for your views on race. So how do you reconcile that with whites being a chosen people? Niggers are still lazy?

    I consider myself to be a Christian. And while I disagree in every aspect of how you interpret the bible, I don't see how the creation story not being literal would change anything. Can't you see it from a metaphorical perspective?

    Yes I do feel this way. Christianity is not my only reason for being a racist. I see what you mean by the metaphorical stand point but what I mentioned here was only the starting point of my faith dying. My problem is that God and religion have been used not for good but for oppression.

    Take the threats of hell for example. It has been used in history from the middle ages until the Salem which trials and even today to scare people into believing what the church said.

    I consider myself a Marxist but unlike the social Marxists such as Bill Ayers or Obama I am also a racialist. I believe in a form of government that embraces the economic ways of the USSR and the racial policy's of Nazi Germany is the best way forward. This includes Marx's view on religion which was that it obstructed critical thinking and was an "opiate of the masses".

    My ideas on race are the same but I have lost faith in the idea that their is a God. For example Jesus said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you could move mountains. I had faith but my prayers were never answered.
  • fanglekaifanglekai Regular
    edited December 2010
    burroughs wrote: »
    Do you still feel this way? I read your article on Christian Identity and it seemed to be largely the basis for your views on race. So how do you reconcile that with whites being a chosen people? Niggers are still lazy?

    I consider myself to be a Christian. And while I disagree in every aspect of how you interpret the bible, I don't see how the creation story not being literal would change anything. Can't you see it from a metaphorical perspective?

    You're opening up a can of worms. Biblical fundamentalists believe in a literal interpretation of the bible precisely because if this part over here is a metaphor, what's to say that this other part is not a metaphor as well? Catholics use the authority of the pope and bishops and whatnot to propagate only one interpretation of the bible. Doing so is the reason catholicism has lasted so long. With protestants and people interpreting shit however they want, you end up with no real definitive interpretation of anything.

    If the creation story is a metaphor, then we can say jesus is a metaphor for proper behavior. You can interpret shit however you want since there's no "right" way to interpret anything. See the problem?
  • fanglekaifanglekai Regular
    edited December 2010
    burroughs wrote: »
    There is no 'one' interpretation of the bible in Catholicism. Catholics are free to believe in creationism or evolution because it doesn't fucking matter. The point is that God created the world and humans in his image.

    Yes, there are certain requirements in the Catholic faith. The accounts in the New Testament are held to be actually historically accurate while some of the Old Testament is open to more metaphorical interpretation. But whatever the case, the underlying meaning does not change. That's why metaphorical interpretation isn't a problem for me.

    This is always a lose-lose argument because people will say that the bible can be distorted to any viewpoint (true), or that they don't like the Church because it promotes one interpretation of the Bible (not entirely true). But oh well. I like reading Bible and I don't use it as a tool of oppression.

    Sanchez, I hear that argument all the time. Anything can used for oppression. But that doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Darwinism and race for example, although you may disagree on that.

    You're right in that catholics can believe in evolution or the creation story or neither or both, but the point is that the church controls what they can and cannot believe. There is an authoritative voice that says "this is valid and this is not valid". For catholics the genesis stories don't really matter that much because evolution is not an issue that conflicts with faith. For many religious people it is, and for them the creation stories must be literal or the whole bible falls apart.

    The point I was trying to make is that if you believe some things are metaphors, then you open up the possibility for other things being metaphors, and who's to say what is literal and what is metaphor? You end up with a text that's completely open to interpretation, at which point is loses its authority. This is why religious texts often have set interpretations. If you can say that the beginning is metaphor, then the end can be metaphor, and tons of stuff in between is metaphor, and then God=jesus saving people through crucifixion is metaphor, and you're left with a bunch of metaphors and interpretations based on whatever you feel like.
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited December 2010
    burroughs wrote: »
    There is no 'one' interpretation of the bible in Catholicism. Catholics are free to believe in creationism or evolution because it doesn't fucking matter. The point is that God created the world and humans in his image.

    Yes, there are certain requirements in the Catholic faith. The accounts in the New Testament are held to be actually historically accurate while some of the Old Testament is open to more metaphorical interpretation. But whatever the case, the underlying meaning does not change. That's why metaphorical interpretation isn't a problem for me.

    This is always a lose-lose argument because people will say that the bible can be distorted to any viewpoint (true), or that they don't like the Church because it promotes one interpretation of the Bible (not entirely true). But oh well. I like reading Bible and I don't use it as a tool of oppression.

    Sanchez, I hear that argument all the time. Anything can used for oppression. But that doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Darwinism and race for example, although you may disagree on that.

    You're right that anything can be used for oppression but has anything in history been used for oppression quite like religion? The crusades, the inquisition, 9/11 are just a few examples. No other ideology has as much blood on it's hands as religion.

    Let me ask you this. What is the common theme among most major religions? The idea that free thought or questioning of doctrine leads to hell or some other punishment. If god knows all then he knows that people will sin and what sin they will commit. So how does a merciful all knowing god know that a guy born in Saudi Arabia is much more likely to follow Islam and reject the "true" religion of Christianity then say Franklin Graham (Billy Grahams son)?
  • starfox223starfox223 Regular
    edited March 2011
    yay your finally free for real
  • edited March 2011
    burroughs wrote: »
    ^ Which I would say is a good thing that Catholics do have a definitive stance on some interpretations.

    But what's the benefit to a definite stance? There's no rule of the universe that having a well-defined position on something is in some way preferable. What's wrong with leaving things unanswered when we don't have a well-supported answer?
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